Saturday, April 7, 2012

Su Beng is now in the midst of a 4 part lecture series about his life. The first lecture was held on March 31 and today will be the second. Full details appear in these flyers:

Here's an English translation of the above flyer:

He is a rare person, a Taiwanese leftist revolutionary. His life has spanned nearly 100 years of Taiwan’s history. He has traveled to 4 continents. He has witnessed Taiwanese people’s opposition movement against the Japanese. He went to Japan for a higher education. There he was enlightened by the modernization of civilization. During World War II he went to China, where he became an undercover agent to resist the Japanese. At the end of World War II he went to the northern part of China where he witnessed land reforms and discovered that the Chinese Communist party was inhumane; they had no regard for humanity. At last he decided to advocate for the Taiwan independent movement, and he spent 10 years to write a book called Taiwan’s 400 Years of History. This history book was the first one written by a Taiwanese person from a Taiwanese point of view. He’s a revolutionary, a man of action, a philosopher. So it’s quite worthwhile to come listen to what he has to say.

Talk 1 (3/31) 1920-30 Glorious old Taipei

Talk 2 (4/7)    My study abroad life, study, singing and Waseda

Talk 3 (4/28)  My Chinese experience underground work, NE China

Talk 4             My revolution: Taiwan’s 400 Years of History, Taiwan independence

1/26 interview of Su Beng with Samuel Lee of LATWTV (Part 3 of 3)

Finally! Here's the last third (42:01-1:02:42) of the English translation of Samuel Lee's interview with Su Beng. The first third appears here and the second third appears here. You can watch the entire interview on YouTube by clicking here.

*Special Thanks to Professor Ching Lee for his invaluable assistance with the translation of this interview.

SL: I see at home here you have [this saying]: “Working together as a group we’ll have power” As this Japanese person, Shi Dou wrote: United we have power.

SB: He was from one of the emperor’s noble families in Kyoto. He was famous for the articles he wrote. He was a humanitarian.

SL: It’s fitting that this quote captures O-ji-san’s philosophy. Being united is power.

SB: The author asked me, “What do you want me to write?” and I just said something about being united together [being united is power].

SL: This is a useful phrase. So for you looking at Taiwan’s situation, what is your perspective, what do you think?

SB: From a simple perspective Taiwan has met the criteria for independence. Now if you look back at the Japanese occupation era, in all of Asia it [Japan] was the most developed, capitalistic and modern country and after that it was either Korea, India, or Taiwan, in the 1930s, then you’d know Taiwan’s education and culture the standards were very high. To be a capitalistic society you need to raise the standards of education and culture. So Taiwan was more [advanced] than other places.

SL: What about after the Kuomintang came?

SB: The Kuomintang was even worse. You see Taiwan from 1895 to 1945 every year the outdated was fixed/taken care of and it kept on modernizing. Same with the government and law. In Taiwan, during the Japanese occupation period, if you wanted to arrest someone you couldn’t take them away without proper papers, but when the Kuomintang came if you weren’t the police, the secret police just dragged you away then you wouldn’t come back There was huge difference between the society [before and after the Kuomintang came].

Taiwan’s culture was more developed [than China’s], compared to Egypt and Asia it was more developed. In terms of economics, now Taiwan is within the top 20 of 200 or so countries. Taiwan has the necessary conditions to be a modernized society. So in short the Taiwanese the Taiwanese have everything, they are just lacking a “Taiwanese soul.”

SL: The Taiwanese people… what I find strange is, even though we had the da pu se jian (大埔事件), recently [in which the government went in a destroyed the rice fields of farmers in Da Pu in Taoyuan, Miaoli], and then the [government] spent 200 million New Taiwan dollars on a concert for Meng Xiang Jia ( 夢想家) [Dreamer- a musical play] in Taiwan. Recklessly spending money. And the Kuomintang still won the election. Where is the Taiwanese people’s political principles, I wonder?

SB: It’s like this, for 400 years we haven’t had the chance to rule for ourselves, we were always ruled/governed by others, thus we have this psychological complex [on the one hand we want to rule ourselves, but on the other seem to be fine with being ruled with others] and thinking which side will win/who should I side with to win. This is something we should reflect on, the historical facts. There’s a big difference between someone who has a “Taiwanese soul” and says “I’m Taiwanese” and someone who doesn’t. Those who have [a “Taiwanese soul”] will insist on their principle and the others would work with the enemy.

SL: For the Taiwanese to become a modernized country, political awareness and ideas have to make further advancement.

SB: The first thing is the time period, after World War II not only has there been material development, but people’s awareness also has developed. People have to realize the existence of others [---] During the imperialist period there was no give and take between people, but after World War II. In the west people went through World War I and World War II, they were fighting each other and they have paid this price and have gradually developed this sense of mutual respect with other. Compared to the ideal there is still a big gap, but for now there has been some advancement. In the past if a stronger power took over a colony, that was considered a good thing, but now it is a bad thing. So the worldwide trend is advantageous to us [Taiwan]. No one in the world thinks that the Kuomintang is our rightful ruling government. Furthermore China’s dictatorship government is a problem [for the Taiwanese], but the world trend the movement towards mutual respect and this is a good thing for Taiwan. That Taiwan has been ruled by outside regimes, this is wrong. The status of the country used to be dubious but now the Taiwanese people are welcome to discuss and speak their minds [on this topic].

SL: That Taiwanese people were ruled by foreign regimes creates a problem between the people who try to work within or outside of the system. The people who work outside of the system want to correct/change the current situation. The people who work within the system want to correct/change the current situation. The people who work within the system tend to lose their soul and because of the elections they lose their political claim to make changes. Those that work outside of the system comparatively can insist on their ideas better than those that work within the system. So in your opinion, how will these two groups of people be able to work together?

SB: Let me tell you, first Taiwan has been ruled by the Kuomintang for 60-70 years, with secret police, which was basically like a dictatorship, like Stalin. People could take you away in the middle of the night and then [you’d] never come home. This wasn’t just one or two instances. Under these circumstances most Taiwanese are against the Kuomintang. The problem is that some have been employed by the Kuomintang, some have “gotten money from the Kuomintang” and so they vote for them [Kuomintang]. If you turn it around and talk about the Taiwan independence movement working on it for 60 something years, but there haven’t been any results.

The weakness of Taiwanese originates, you were saying with the soul [lack of soul] but it is not that easy to change it. The DDP is not thinking about this, they are just thinking about their own special interests. So they think how can I become a legislator so that I can get some special rights [personal benefit].

Up to now Taiwan independence movement has only dealt with branches an leaves, but hasn’t paid attention to the roots or soul. So it’s dragging along. Truthfully speaking, Peng Min-Ming and my family were friends. His brother and I were classmates. I’ve met him only 2-3 times, he has been working within the Kuomintang framework, but he didn’t talk about the root of the problem. He was amongst the most elite intellectuals of Taiwan, what really needs to be talked about is the most basic things, like branches and leaves. He talked about the problems with the Kuomintang, from a legal perspective.
To solve the problem you need to talk about your principles, ideas, position, and strategy.

SL: Now you are talking about the system.

SB: The system… the society, the society’s present system.

SL: This time you were really busy with your motorcade going around Taiwan and with the election results… not as good as expected… O-ji-san were you disappointed?

SB: I was disappointed for about an hour or so. Of course I felt disappointed, but then after about an hour I thought, what’s next? The failure was because of colonialism and strategy and tactics. We have to insist on our roots, that the Taiwanese and Chinese are not the same.

These past last few days I haven’t been out much. I’m going to write this: the Taiwanese people should protect Taiwan and oppose to the Kuomintang bringing China over.
And then this [banner] is going to go out every day. With regards to the independence issue if we don’t get ideology right, then it’ll be like this [with the same recent election results]. From now on there will be hardship, but we must persist/insist.

Regarding what you mentioned about working within or outside of the system, in these last 60 years those who work within have money, those working outside don’t have money. So the people working within the system monopolize the political resources. Those working on the outside don’t have access to the media to attack the others.

The DPP is the same [as the Kuomintang], there are people working inside the system and outside the system, fighting against each other. But I am not like that, the Taiwan Independence Association wasn’t like that, in general those working on the outside cannot tell the people working within the system what to do nor can those working on the inside can’t tell with those working outside of the system what to do. In that way you work together. But they don’t. At least, I don’t criticize the DPP. For example when Peng Ming-min and Lee Teng hui or Chen Shui-bian were running for election. Although I work outside the system, I got involved. Cooperation is very important. The Taiwanese people working together is what’s most important. Working together is not to say what is right or wrong with the Kuomintang it is what the Taiwanese people’s roots are [as a basis for cooperation].

SL: This time as your motorcade made round all over Taiwan, O-ji-san you were there traveling around with the motorcade. At your age, running around must be so exhausting.

SB: Yes, it was exhausting, I was tired but whatever I can do within my means… this has to do with one’s outlook on life. I have chosen this path… If you know what nationalism is, the Kuomintang, the history of Taiwan, once you know this, you cannot escape it.
What is most important now in all of Taiwan [is that] most people do not read [are not well read]. Part of the problem is the media is controlled/monopolized [and] the educational system is still the Kuomintang’s. Under these circumstances, the things we want to do are deep and very difficult. But if this path is not cleared, then Taiwanese people won’t [have a future]. So the circumstances are calling for independence but we are not independent and it’s bad.

SL: For Taiwan’s future O-ji-san, take good care of your health. We still need you.

SB: This is a natural phenomena. I’m getting near the end. Now it’s your turn to work hard [for the cause]. I’m very happy to talk to you today. Everyone who’s talked to me hasn’t discussed our roots, you are one of the few to talk to me about our roots.

My [ideology of] Taiwan nationalism people haven’t studied it. Your look at the island, this is a good thing […] The most important thing is that as society develops, the more important education and part of that is the media, and Taiwan’s media, look at it …

SL: One last question about media’s worldview. In Taiwan, the media rarely deals with world issues. How do you see the media?

SB: Media is a public instrument. It is not the Kuomintang’s or Democratic Progressive Party’s or anyone’s. The media can be proud of themselves by looking at issues with a sense of ethics. Taiwan does not have this, so what comes out is the Kuomintang on the surface and underneath it’s the Chinese Communist party controlling things. In this situation the US will not just let things go. In Taiwan no one is speaking the truth. If you talk about independence, you get cancelled. See what this does to Taiwan’s society? The average person doesn’t know this. They are being pushed from one end/side to another

SL: People within the Democratic Progressive Party have said that the DDP need to reexamine the cross strait relations policy and a lot of strange theories have surfaced.

SB: The Democratic Progressive Party’s principles are not firm so then their strategies and tactics end up changing their principles. So the latter [strategies and tactics] changes the former [the principles]. It’s not right, like a grandchild changing his grandparent. The eras are different and so the principles are different [it’s out of order]. Taiwan is now facing this problem.

SL: It is a mess.

SB: So I think if you could work on this it would be very good.

With the media it’s the same the basis [focus] should be on Taiwan [for Taiwan’s interests]. We do not do things for our self-interest but for Taiwan. If you don’t work for Taiwan but your own interests, then you’ll be like today’s politicians.

SL: Thank you O-ji-san today. After the election you were so busy and not feeling very well. So for today, excuse me, thank you.

SB: You have the enthusiasm. Now we will take it step by step and develop Taiwan.

SL: Oji-san please give us some more advice. Thank you, thank you O-ji-san.

SB: It’s mutual and we learn from each other.

SL: Dear viewers and friends, thank you everyone for watching
I want to thank Su Beng and his two assistants. Thanks for their help to make this interview happen and run smoothly. [This interview] lets everyone understand Su Beng’s view points. I believe “United we have power,” the phrase written by the very famous Japanese writer, that we saw on the wall before and it gives us a lot of encouragement, insight and power.

Today, thank you everyone for watching and see you next time.

Friday, April 6, 2012

1/26 interview of Su Beng with Samuel Lee of LATWTV (Part 2 of 3)

Here's the English translation for the second third (0:19:42-0:42:01) of the 1/26 interview that Samuel Lee of LATWTV (conducted in Taiwanese and Mandarin Chinese) with Su Beng. The first third of the interview was translated here. To watch the entire interview on YouTube click here.

*Special Thanks to Professor Ching Lee for his invaluable assistance with this and future translation of this interview.

SL: So what do you think the Democratic Progressive Party […] You advocate-Taiwan nationalism as a core principle and you have quite a complete theoretical foundation […] As far as the Democratic Progressive Party is concerned, Tsai Ing-wen has proposed a “Taiwan consensus” (i.e. consensus about the future of Taiwan. The Kuomintang [in addition to others] has also criticized the Taiwan consensus as too ambiguous a term. So why doesn’t the DPP want to use your concept of Taiwan nationalism? Then the idea would be very clear, more solid and have a theoretical foundation and a historical foundation. What is your view on this?

SB: This has to do with the tendency of the Taiwanese people’s movement. A movement or revolution serves to change the status quo. If there is no principle or ideas, it won’t get done. In this area the Taiwanese haven’t established this [way of thinking]. Everyone from Liao Bun Geh or Peng Min-Ming’s time onward discussed the Kuomintang’s shortcomings but didn’t have a theoretical foundation to mobilize people. They didn’t discuss what Taiwan is, what Taiwan’s history is and what history we have gone through, what was Taiwan’s situation in the past, or what is Taiwan’s place in the international community. No one discusses this. They just attack the Kuomintang’s weaknesses and fight against each other and this is called politics [in Taiwan]. This is the Taiwanese people’s biggest problem

SL: In talking about this it seems to be only skin deep [very shallow], [it] doesn’t have spiritual depth.

SB: That’s right. When it comes to a social group or movement, if you want independence, if you want to take care of things [get things done], if you don’t have spiritual depth, then it will not be possible. Spiritual depth comes from a historical tradition.

SL: Regarding Taiwan nationalism, something the [you] O-ji-san has talked about/advocated for so long […] If we look at Egypt and the Middle East, their culture, [and] with a land mass so large [larger than Taiwan’s] and they have had the Arab Spring Revolution it can happen there [but] why [with] Taiwan being such a small island, how come your idea of Taiwan consensus [i.e. Taiwan nationalism], [why] haven’t a lot of people reacted to it like that [in the case of the Arab Spring Revolution]. O-ji-san, what do you think is the main reason why this is not happening?

SB: This, well you see, Taiwan has 400 years of history, if you look at Asian and African countries colonized by the Westerners, in about the same time period… This question that you just asked, I haven’t really thought about it too much. But I think whether it’s Egypt, Syria, or India, they were each colonized by one colonizing country for about 3 or 500 years. If it wasn’t England, it was France or Germany or […]. If you look at Taiwan’s 400 years [of history], there were several sections, the Dutch for 38 years, the Ching dynasty for 213 years, Japan for 51 years, and now so on… In this period of time, the Taiwanese people’s Taiwanese-ness [sense of being Taiwanese] and thinking has been divided by them [colonial rulers] several times. Another thing is, colonization is a strategy to cause separation [division]. With this strategy to separate, if ethnic groups [and] nationalism is intact, if you have focal point [core values], then you won’t be that easily influenced. In Taiwan most of the aborigines came from the south, and the Han came from China. In the midst of all this they didn’t want to be ruled by others. But with these things, if you don’t get to the root of it, then you just end up criticizing the [weaknesses] rulers. In doing the work of a revolution, if you don’t have very strong principles [or beliefs] or ideology, you cannot stand firm, then your strategy and tactics can’t be very strong you’ll waver from one side to the other. If your ideology is not firm you can’t stand firm.

Now before, why did I say that before that Taiwan’s democracy became one of a state without a government [i.e. no rule of law]? At the time when Chiang Ching-guo died, the democracy that people spoke of […] meant total freedom, if people had freedom/civil liberty this was [considered to be] democracy. But actually democracy has a social base, if there is no foundation it is not possible. If we don’t have the basic structure and everyone has total freedom but the result is a state without government, meaning anything could be said, people could say anything they wanted. It had just become like that.

SL: 0:25:50 Now I’d like to ask you another question. Now presently we have [the idea of] independence ideology. Taiwan has many historians who have written about history. The strange thing is that historians would talk about the history of it, and not take a stand on it. O-ji-san you wrote Taiwan’s 400 Years of History, you have taken a position [on this]. Many scholars have not taken a position. Is the reason because they don’t dare to or …

SB: Let me tell you, what you are pointing out about, this is one of the most basic problems of study. Modern science comes from the west, which has a definite methodology, there’s a paradigm. When looking at something you first look at the essence, then you see how it develops, then see what must be done about it, then see the ideology, stance [position], strategy, discipline. Taiwanese people are not familiar with this. This is the result of colonialism. So in a sense the Taiwanese are all victims, with all the education problems, young people are victims, but this problem of being victimized, how do we overcome this problem? You must go back to the origin [roots], if you don’t have the basics, if you just overcome the branches and leaves. It is no use. If the Taiwanese themselves don’t have self-awareness or spirit, if you don’t have the spirit or soul then everything is like branches and leaves.

SL: So we can say that the impact of colonialism is quite major.

SB: Colonialism had a huge impact on the people and society of Taiwan. With the Kuomintang, they had learned from the Chinese Communists [so when they ruled] they were not just taking advantage of you politically, but they were reforming your way of thinking. That’s the biggest problem. The way they reformed your thinking was not like Japan, in which they just did so by teaching you. They [the Kuomintang] used the secret police and political oppression to force you, so the suffering of the Taiwanese people was huge.

Part of the problem, if you discuss it further, lies with the Taiwanese people themselves. If the Taiwanese people themselves don’t think that being treated like this is disadvantageous, then it [the status quo] will continue. So whatever it is, it’s just like life, if you do not have a direction and you keep flip flopping, then you will not have any strength [power].

SL: If we talk about the changing stance of historians now, for example Japan has [its] Japan nationalism, and China has Chinese nationalism from Sun Yat Sen, Taiwan has O-ji-san’s Taiwan nationalism. When you proposed this idea, could tell us how you came up with the idea that Taiwan needs this ideological perspective?

SB: This actually has to do with my life experience. In the Ching dynasty my grandmother and great grandfather for example, everyone [of that generation] said, we all came from China, but when they saw Chinese people they called them immigrants from China and most people distained them [the Chinese]. There was an opposition to the Ching dynasty [this opposition lasted into] the Japanese occupation period, for the elderly they all thought the Chinese were no good.

I grew up during the Japanese occupation period. When I was in middle school and high school I used to have to chant “Long live the emperor.” I used to think who was my emperor [what did that have to do with me]? So there was a very basic questioning of what it meant to be Taiwanese. That made me think about these things. And because my grandmother, great grandfather and mother, none of them thought of China as their homeland. [The term] homeland is a modern concept and they viewed the Chinese as being worse than us [beneath us]. So naturally in my youth, China didn’t really matter to me and because I went to university where I studied socialism. My father was a member of the Taiwan Culture Society. He had opposed the Japanese. Since my childhood, I had known Lim Hian Dong, Jiu Wei Sui, [who were active members of the Taiwan Culture Society] so unconsciously, these experiences were the roots. […] When I graduated [from university] I decided to resist the Japanese and so I ended up going to China. As I worked in the resistance against Japan, I saw that the Chinese [Communists] methods were inhumane. When I saw people killing each other and being killed on a massive scale, I realized that I am not Chinese and I don’t need to die in China. From that moment on I had the awareness of being Taiwanese.

So because of that, in 1949, when I returned [to Taiwan], I thought when examining Taiwan’s issues I should go to the essence, I needed to read and know about Taiwan, starting with history. I am not a historian, so that’s why I started from history and kept going.

SL: Now Ma Ying-jeou is opening up Taiwan to China more and more. And with Taiwan awareness, the idea of “I’m Taiwanese” is more and more important to China’s [planned] invasion. If we don’t have a sense of Taiwanese-ness then we will become Chinese-ized, and then if Chinese immigrants and the Taiwanese merge as one. Under this circumstance how will we make the DPP put more emphasis on Taiwanese-ness, otherwise unlike this election in which Taiwanese-ness was purposely de-emphasized, and even one China and one Taiwan on either side [two states instead of two countries] was deemphasized [Taiwanese-ness] is slowly being diluted and if we keep on going backward [like this] until Taiwan becomes the Republic of China, and the Republic of China becomes Taiwan… Ms. Tsai’s idea initially was that the Kuomintang is a government in exile, but then she said that the Taiwan is Republic of China. As this keeps switching [back and forth], Taiwanese-ness is being diluted. Less and less [people] discuss it [Taiwanese-ness]. Since you are so concerned with these issues you must feel uneasy [to see this]. So what can young people do to recover the meaning of Taiwan nationalism?

SB: The question [problem/issue] of nationalism is on the one hand, for example [is about] the same bloodline, living in the same place, or the same environment. These are the basic requirements [conditions]. Then on the other hand there’s one’s way of thinking, like awareness [feeling/sentiment]. For example, [take] you and I, if we spent time together you will realize that you are different from me. This is an awareness of psychological processes. So on this topic, this is my view, if Taiwan has absolutely no awareness of Taiwanese-ness [nationalism] and no ideology and if China comes [takes over] then the future of Taiwan will degenerate. But with this thing, awareness, when the ideology [Taiwanese-ness] meets some opposition, it [Taiwanese-ness] will become stronger and stronger. On the contrary when you meet opposition, it will become even stronger

Actually, nationalism comes from the encounter with other societies or ethnicities. That is where nationalism comes from. If at the end of the Japanese occupation, after the World War II if the Kuomintang had not [ruled] the way that they did, there would not have been a rising Taiwanese awareness.

But when [the Taiwanese] saw the Kuomintang’s essence, [and] the way they ruled, it made the Taiwanese people’s sentiments run high. Sentiments are the beginning [of Taiwanese-ness]. When sentiments run high, then the reaction to immediate oppression… [However] in reality you must obey, you have no choice, but the feelings and awareness have increased [Taiwanese-ness will grow] Let’s take China, in my view when I was there [in China in the 1940s] I saw that it was not mainly socialist, it was a dictatorship. I saw the Chinese peasants, they couldn’t escape the ruling of China. When they were told to do this they would do it. They didn’t see me as a Chinese person, they saw me as a Japanese person and so they [felt they] could me what they really felt from the heart. Their true inner most feelings were against the Chinese Communists.

After Mao Tse Dong died, then Deng Xiao Ping […] so many people [population of China], they could not rule over everyone. China’s politics and organization are very strong, but the Chinese people’s hearts have grown apart from Chinese Communists.

[With] us Taiwanese, I think it’s the same, when the KMT came. At that time because of our livelihood we had to accommodate them, but many people have a conscience and can tell good from bad. So actually people’s feelings of resistance against the Kuomintang will emerge and then when the KMT collapses then Taiwanese-ness will rise. Then the Taiwanese will say we want independence. Once this comes out on the surface it [Taiwanese-ness] will be suppressed, but these feelings, this awareness [in the heart] cannot be suppressed.

For example Communist China is the same, take Tibet. In the beginning Tibet, before the Republic of China period, had a population of 3 million. There was not even a thousand Chinese who had gone there, but China has penetrated and infiltrated it up until now and the population is now 6 million. It’s half Chinese and half Tibetans and so then China will win politically, militarily. But you see Tibetans are still the way they are [against China].

SL: To avoid being taken over by China, the increase of Taiwanese-ness is very important, to be just like Tibet and East Timor.

SB: It’s all the same. China now has 55 ethnic minorities, and China always uses these same methods. Take Mongolia, now there are more Mongolians […].

SL: So the Chinese Communists want to have the Taiwanese aborigines to attend their ethnic minority group/meetings. This is the start of a new tactic.

SB: With each ethnic group, they try to separate [factionalize/divide] them one by one. And us in Taiwan, we are the easiest to divide. So us Taiwanese [are], 84-85% Holo people, Hakka make up 13-14%, and Aborigines are only about 50,000 or so. So dividing us up is easy to do. So whenever I go somewhere like Hsinchu I always say that we need to work together because… How are the Taiwanese and Chinese different? First the land of Taiwan was developed by our Holo, Hakka, and aborigine ancestors. It has nothing to do with China. This is the point, their ancestors are not the same as ours. This is one of our major roots. I’ve often said that, in the past, during the Ching dynasty, they… Let me give a bit of a longer explanation, hear me out. Shi liong, who was general and Koxinga’s father had come to occupy Taiwan. He [Shi liong] had fought with the Hakka people in Chao Tso and then in Xia Men. When he took over Taiwan. He brought the governing documents and in the beginning in 1895 he only allowed Holo people to go to Taiwan but banned Hakka people [from going to Taiwan]---- Hakka –1895, no that’s not right, from1795-1874, in the time, for about 80 years the Hakka people weren’t permitted to come. So because of this when the Hakka did come, all of the good land had been claimed. There was only rocky areas or mountainous areas.

SL: Like Miaoli.

SB: Under those circumstances the majority took advantage of the minority. So the Holo had taken over everything. This a historical tragedy. What I’m saying is that now if the Taiwanese are not united, they cannot afford to not work together. What does working being united mean? If only the Holo work together we can’t accomplish anything. If only the Hakka work together, we can’t do anything. Everyone needs to work together
If we use the democratic process, they [Hakka] will always be a minority, if this is always the case the Hakka and Holo will always be a minority. So we need to find a political solution to this situation, so that we can be united.

Translation of the last third of the interview will be posted soon.